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Post by fluxlizard on Aug 15, 2011 23:53:32 GMT
Hello all. Hope everyone is having a pleasant summer. I've spent some of mine digging out a terrarium- have a hole about 7' square and 4' deep out by the garden that I'm soon fixing up for my jeweled lacerata. In the process of thinking about this winter and the lacerta and some of my other lizards like argentine tegus and australian water dragons, I've come up with an idea for a hibernation chamber and I am hoping some of you with more experience could give me some feedback before I dive in and put this thing together in a few enclosures. Here is a rough diagram- I am in south central Virginia. Our winters here are mostly days 5 to 10 celcius, most nights -6 to -1 c, some days a few degrees warmer or cooler, some nights a few degrees warmer, a very few cooler each year. Our legal frostline is 24"- in reality I don't think it freezes very deep very often- maybe several inches at most. So the basic idea- a 3' high x 2' wide 55 gallon storage drum dropped into a hole in the ground, covered with a 3 or 4" thick styrophome sheet of insulation that is a bit wider than the barrel, then this in turn is covered with some 2" thick concrete blocks whose tops are level with the level of the earth. To get in and check the drum, I just have to remove the blocks and the sheet, and maybe all this will help keep water away (and temperature up) and trap heat of the earth below in the barrel. Maybe. The barrel would have a hole in one side near the top with black flexible plastic drain pipe for an entrance for the lizards. Plastic hardware cloth fixed to the side with the entrance would provide and escape ladder should the leaves filling the barrel settle over the months of hibernation. I was thinking of dumping a pile of leaves over the whole thing once the lizards went to sleep and then covering the leaf pile with plastic and maybe more leaves on top similar to timo langerwerf on youtube for his tegus. What does everybody think? Will my lizards be warm enough this winter if I do this? I was also thinking of just covering the terrariums with plastic greenhouse style instead of directly on the leafpile. Thoughts of one vs the other? One last thing- wondering if it would be a good idea or bad idea to drill holes in the bottom of the barrel? I was thinking humidity from the earth would keep the inside the proper humidity if I did this. On the other hand, if I start with fresh leaves and maybe mist gently , they might stay humid enough through the winter without the holes and the barrel would also then be watertight. Thoughts? Another thing I was wondering is will the lizards actually choose to use this rather than dig their own burrows? I think the lacerta would be OK digging their own, but not the tegu or waterdragons- I fear they may not dig deep enough.
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Post by monkeyboy on Aug 16, 2011 11:47:09 GMT
Hi Fluxlizard,
This forum is starting to look like NATO (and I see a lot of familar names on lacertausa as well, which is great!).
Not really much of an expert, but I know there are very mixed feelings about artificial hibernacula on this forum. I would put drainage holes in barrel (as long as you have no rising ground water issues?). Check out climatic conditions for species in question is best course of action (5 degs must be very similar to winter temp in parts of lepidas natural range). You could fill bottom half of barrel with play sand (over pea gravel) and top with leaves as this will help maintain humidity gradient and allow animals to express natural burrowing (do water dragons burrow??). A winter topping of leaves and/or bubble wrap is a popular frost protection over here (though i guess there is fine line between having enough depth of leaves and not raising height to close to side walls! (especially with bigger lizards)). In previous years I've had 2ft deep sand/ leaf filled hibernation box accessed via rock tunnel under 18"mound of sand n polystyrene, which has been fine for small lacertids. However current design of viv has less top cover so may be trying leaves/ bubble wrap this winter (I'm in SW England where mean winter temp is 5-10 degs with only occasional frosts, er except last two winters!). I'm sure you'll get lots more advice from more experienced keepers. Good luck with the build.
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Post by fluxlizard on Aug 16, 2011 14:50:24 GMT
Thanks for your feedback.
To answer your question- yes australian waterdragons burrow to hibernate. When I visited Agama International I was told that they build a group burrow and when the burrows were checked by the Langerwerfs within a few minutes the waterdragons inside would plug the entrance again with earth- even in the coldest part of winter! There they hibernate about 6 months out of the year. But I was also told that they could only survive in the burrows in Bert's special-built solar pit vivaria where temperatures did not get as cold- so they must not burrow very deep.
My winters here are slightly colder than Alabama and several weeks longer.
I guess what I'm trying to do by sinking the barrel and insulating the top is to get the ground temperatures of a solar pit cage without making the pit. I read that 4' below the surface of the earth, most of the earth is pretty much the same temperature. My barrels won't go quite that deep, but for this area I'm sure I won't have to go 4' deep to get that earth temperature anyway.
The property I currently own is not the place I want for the rest of my life, so I don't want to do permanent solar pits out of concrete block until I move on to my next home someday.
I'm not sure about drainage- My 4' deep pit outside that I've dug out in preparation for my first year round enclosure has a couple inches of water in it, but I can't tell if it is ground water or rain run-off. It was dry prior to rain, but has not evaporated in a couple of weeks even though it is near the top of a pretty big hill. We have heavy clay soil- digging was slow going for a pit this size and I think the problem is really drainage and not groundwater... My barrel wouldn't go that deep, I don't know if lepida would burrow 4' deep. In any case I'll have half the top covered in summer and all in winter.
My interest really is what to do about the water dragons and the tegus. I'm pretty sure the lepida will be fine with a more traditional "let them burrow themselves" setup if I mix a lot of sand into the clay soil that we have here. But I'm thinking of building these for the lepida as well so the enclosures all match. And because of the hardiness of the lepida I was thinking they would get the test run of the first enclosure this winter and I'd monitor temps with digital thermometers with probes and high/low recording.
I've been cooling the tegus and waterdragons in a cold room the past couple of years since I got them at about 10-15 degrees. Tegus cycle (I guess) and my female lays eggs every year but they are infertile. So she is cycling- less sure about the male. I got my first water dragon eggs this summer and they look good so far- due to hatch in a week or two or three. Come to think of it I didn't actually use the cold room for those this year. I did last year and they didn't breed and I lost some in hibernation so I chickened out and cooled like my bearded dragons (temps as low as 10 nights, some days 15, other days as high as 20) but kept them like that for 6 months. So I may have found a good way that works for me indoors, if I can repeat the success but I'd prefer outdoors if possible.
I don't have any success experience with the lepida or other lacerta- this is my first time with those and the lacertausa forums has me a little spooked after reading about indoor hibernation failures there (in the refridgerator).
Did you have an open bottom for your hibernation box? I like your idea about filling partway with sand to allow burrowing.
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Post by monkeyboy on Aug 17, 2011 11:46:48 GMT
Hello again,
Hmm very interesting. Do you mean the Tegus "cycle" in that they have a seasonal variation (ie active and hibernation) or that your cycling them for northern hemisphere?
Yes previous design of viv had hiberbnation area open at base (insulation on top only) however I had a mouse tunnel into enclosure, so entire base of new setup is concrete (with small drainage holes) entry point is at ground level. Pics of viv (rather poor ones!) are on this forum.
Have you tried looking at german sites like Lacerta.de and dutch podacris.nl they have some good articles and links to european keepers, with some good experence of outdoor setups.
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Post by fluxlizard on Aug 17, 2011 18:04:45 GMT
re: tegus cycling- I just mean active and hibernation.
I enjoyed looking at the pics of your enclosure.
I haven't tried those other sites. Thank you for making me aware of them. I'm going to go check them out now.
Thanks!
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Post by viridis on Aug 18, 2011 19:08:57 GMT
I cant really comment on the Tegus or Water Dragons but I really think that you are over complicating things for the Lacerta.I would be tempterd to dig down a couple of feet and backfill the hole with rubble,earth and sharp sand.That way the lizards can find their own hibernaculum without any problems. As you said there is no guarantee that they will use your barrel or they may dig under your barrel and not nbe able to suface.The lizards will need it damp but not soaking wet,so you may want to cover the enclosure with bubble wrap.I find that a good layer of leaves acts as a good insulator.
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barb1
Full Member
Posts: 217
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Post by barb1 on Aug 22, 2011 22:22:15 GMT
I agree with viridis. I think it would be better to let the Lepida dig their own tunnel from the mound. You could make a start for them and let them continue. Once they are settled for winter in October/November, you can fill the entrance with leaves and cover the top with a tarpauline.
By the way, they can dig 4 foot, so having a barrel may be a problem. I would be very wary of water coming up, or water collecting in the barrel.
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Post by fluxlizard on Aug 24, 2011 20:57:32 GMT
I agree with viridis. I think it would be better to let the Lepida dig their own tunnel from the mound. You could make a start for them and let them continue. Once they are settled for winter in October/November, you can fill the entrance with leaves and cover the top with a tarpauline.
By the way, they can dig 4 foot, so having a barrel may be a problem. I would be very wary of water coming up, or water collecting in the barrel. Thanks for your help! Water coming up is a concern of mine as well- water going down and collecting not so much, the lid to the barrel is watertight, and I should be able to seal around the entrance tube with silicone, but groundwater if I drill holes so humidity from the earth can enter through the bottom then maybe, I don't know. I guess my first thought would be if it floods the barrel wouldn't it also flood anything the lizards dig themselves? I do plan on covering the lacerta enclosure with greenhouse plastic for the winter to keep rain and some of the cold out of the enclosure altogether. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do yet- I've got a really big pile of rubble that I've collected this past year- broken bits of cement and rock and bricks and concrete blocks and chimney block that I had planned to use for the lacerta before I came across the barrels for free. I might give them the choice and see if they choose the barrel. I had a friend over who is a geologist and he showed me in my hole about how deep he felt the ground would freeze in really cold years- looked to match the topsoil/clay line and about 18" deep. That is my main concern- that the lizards go deep enough to stay warm enough- from reading I guess lacerta can go down to a few degrees above freezing but the waterdragons and tegus I think have to be closer to 10 degrees I think. Which I would guess might be another foot or so below that clay line if it froze all the way to that line. I also have no idea what happens when water is kept out of the area- water from rain moves cold deeper into the earth, so cover it with plastic and ? I'll definately be setting up some test barrels somewhere in the ground probably without lizards but with everything else and then with thermometers and I'll be checking temps and possibly humidity levels this winter to see if it will work for some of the larger lizards. On a happy note- one container of my aussie water dragons have started hatching! I've got one outside already and one just poking his head out. So, the indoor cooling worked last winter. I'll probably do the same this year and test a barrel, but I might put the barrel in place first to see if they will use it and then remove them after the weather truly gets cold and monitor temps in the empty barrel. If they even use it- Langerwerf's in Alabama used tunnels he hand started and sealed the entrance. I wonder if I hand dug a really deep tunnel if they would go for it? The tegus already use artificial burrows I made out of plastic storage 55 gallon containers re-enforced so they don't collapse. Indoors they sleep in the same with very slightly dampened leaves for several months, so I'm sure they would use the barrels *if* they remain warm enough. Oh- a link others might find interesting- when looking for artificial hibernacula online I found this link to one done for wild snakes in Ohio (a few hundred miles west and north of me). The tubing is the same I was planning on using with my barrels, but they used big chunks of concrete instead of barrels to get the space needed. respectthesnake.com/hibernacula.html there are lots of pictures of the construction if you click the link on the page.
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