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Post by ameivaboy on Jul 23, 2010 2:26:50 GMT
Hello, I Live in the US and not many people keep lacertas here and even fewer keep them outdoors. I keep my lacertas outdoors in screen cages and plan on covering the cages with tarp when it starts to rain and moving them into a shed when it gets very cold. It rarely hits freezing here. This will be the first year I hibernate mine outdoors naturally and I have a few questions. 1. I have heard that many will not make it the first hibernation, is this true? how can i best prepare them other than feeding them well prior? This concerns me as I have 4 2 month old lepidus. They were not cheap and even worse they are not easy to find here in the US. 2. Will the animals stop feeding on their own? I dont want to keep feeding them and have the food ferment in their guts and kill them. oh, I have the hatchling timon lepidus and quite a few adult podarcis sicula campestris (and eggs incubating so possibly babies) any and all advice will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance
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Post by Iowarth on Jul 23, 2010 7:03:52 GMT
Hiya
I can understand your concerns. There is both good news and bad news to be had. The bad news is that hibernation is always a stessful and high risk time for lizards. As a consequence, dependent on many factors, losses can occur.
The better news is that lacertids can be divided into two groups - those that hibernate and those that brumate. The former are at higher risk - more especially from mild winters. BUT, T. lepidus and P.siculus are both in the latter group. In this case, they are not fully comatose in the winter. This means that they can respond (to some extent) to changing conditions and are less likely to be caught out by abrupt weather changes. Also, these two species are extremely tough.
So far as preparation for hibernation is concerned, with outdoor vivaria you simply keep offering them food. As temperatures and hours of daylight reduce they will eat less and less and the food offered can be reduced accordingly. The problems with "preparing" for hibernation are largely restricted to artificial conditions.
T. lepidus will remain in their hibernacula throughout the winter (but, if you open the hibernaculum they will usually wake up immediately hissing and biting!). P. siculus, will, however, emerge even in mid-winter on a sunny day. Whereas with most animals in genus Lacerta, this would be extremely worrying, with Podarcis this is normal behaviour.
In my experience losses are minimal with both these species - I have lost very few Timon (even my 27 year old male came through a brutal winter this year) and NO P. siculus in hibernation. Our winters are variable - until two years ago we had little or no frost but lots of rain. The last two winters were bone dry but bitterly cold - and long.
If the Timon are that difficult to get hold of, you could transfer them indoors and give them a brief artificial hibernation, then, when they have bred, test THEIR offspring in natural conditions. If you do this, you will have to run down their food and watch hibernation temperatures. In any event, as a guide, temperatures in their hibernaculum should not drop below 5C or rise above 10C. The latter is less of a risk for these two as if, they do get up they will normally put themselves back down again when it cools.
Lastly, although all of these are tried and tested facts, obviously I have never been able to test them in YOUR climate. Certainly Bert Langerwerf had little problem with these animals in Alabama!
All the best Chris
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Post by ameivaboy on Jul 23, 2010 15:17:50 GMT
hello, thank you for your response. Generally the winter temperatures here have a high of around 12.7- 16.6C with night time lows around 4.5-7.2C very rarely will freezes happen. I believe the low temperatures should be able be tolerated by the lizards well with much dirt/leaves in the enclosures as well as being in a shed out in the yard. I had talked to Bert Langerwerf of Agama International several times before his passing and he had told me that the area I lived would be near perfect for the lepidus. However there's always still the concern. I have seen pictures of his enclosures during the winter there where snow would collect on the tarps his placed over the screens. Maybe I am more worried than I should be, but I suppose better to be overly cautious than not. I am also wondering since I plan on sticking them in the shed during the coldest parts of winter at around what temperture I should try to bring them back outside. haha I worry so, I dont want anything to happen to my lacertids. I love them so much
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Post by Iowarth on Jul 23, 2010 20:33:44 GMT
Hi again I would agree with Bert. Throughout much of their (Timon) range on the Iberian peninsula your temperatures are a very close match. If they can dig sufficiently deeply in the outdoor vivs I would honestly question whether putting them in the shed would be necessary - or even wise. In both species, mine coped with temperatures down to minus 9C last winter. If your winters are particularly wet a tarp does sound like a good idea though. Basically, they can cope with almost anything so long as they can get buried away from the worst.
Chris
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Post by mark68 on Jul 24, 2010 16:01:31 GMT
I would agree totally with what Chris says above but would add...
I live within the southern part of the range of Timon lepidus. Although there are areas of their range with milder winters there are also areas with much colder conditions than here. We have around 30 frosts per wintyer down to around minus 7c. Last winter we had snow, and an hours drive from here north there are places with lepidus that has snow that lasts for weeks. You are in a very mild place for lepidus.
If you do keep them outdoors this winter (and i would) then it is important to get them outdoors ASAP so they can get used to a gradual cool down. Give them natural conditions and the lizards will know what to do to prepare there bodies for the winter.
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Post by ameivaboy on Jul 24, 2010 20:26:57 GMT
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Post by Iowarth on Jul 24, 2010 22:34:39 GMT
Hi Kevin Hmmm ..... having followed the link I can see where you might well have problems. Your vivaria are superb but differ enormously from those both I in the UK and Mark in Portugal use. In our case, our vivaria are at ground level (with walls extending below GL) and generally have both well insulated caves and the animals can dig into the ground. Consequently hibernation can be a totally natural event. In your case, not only is there insufficient depth of sub-strate but if they do dig they will be subjected to low temperatures from below, and all round, the vivaria.
I certainly wouldn't risk hibernating them in their vivaria as they stand. Consequently you may well have to move them into the shed. Your big problem then is likely to be keeping them "down" through the winter period - in other words, holding the temperature between the 5C minimum at which you can be sure of survival and the 10C maximum above which they will tend to become active and absorb their food reserves while not necessarily getting warm enough to feed.
If you actually plan to move the vivaria themselves into the shed things might be more manageable. You could set up tube lights (natural light plus UV transmitting) timed to coincide with the natural progress of daylight, together with basking bulbs which came on only at temperatures at which the lizards became active.
Unlike animals in genus Lacerta neither Timon nor Podarcis suffer if they are given a period of dormancy rather than full hibernation so there is a reasonably comfortable margin of error here. Should you be successful in your quest for Lacerta viridis/bilineata though, problems could be much greater.
Since I don't use any artificial hibernation techniques for my animals (save simple temperature reductions to encourage relative dormancy throughout winter with Gallotia) I am not best placed to advise you further. Other forum members might, however, have greater experience in this respect.
All the best
Chris
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Post by ameivaboy on Jul 25, 2010 20:15:28 GMT
I am considering building a box to the dimensions of the cage and knocking out the floor of the screen cages and places the screen part over the box so I could have around 25cm of dirt for them to burrow in. I think I may also place styrofoam insulation on the sides and bottom of the box for added protection. Do you think 25cm would be deep enough? It rarely gets to freezing here but we have occasional mornings where frost can be seen on the roofs.
~Kevin
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Post by Iowarth on Jul 26, 2010 6:51:19 GMT
Hi Kevin. Hmmmm ............. a little tricky as I can only talk about theory here. Certainly 25cm should be ample depth for the temperature range you are talking of, and there is no doubt that styrofoam's suberb insulation qualities would be the equivalent of many inches of soil or rock.
The one thing I might add is to actually temporarily clad all but the south facing sides of the vivaria themselves with styrofoam. Possibly, though, simply covering those sides with a tarp might suffice.
Certainly here, when we do get the bitterly cold weather this is usually associated with a cold east or north wind, thus that suggestion. As a safeguard, if you could get at least one remote sensor thermometer and monitor the temperatures an inch or so below the top of the soil on a daily basis first thing in the morning (again, usually the coldest part of the day), then if you got a sustained drop below 5 C then it would be wise to move the animals indoors.
Sorry if I sound a little vague here but I am moving outside my personal experience. If, however, this technique does work, you should be in with a good chance of using it for genus Lacerta if you are successful in getting some as well.
All the best
Chris
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Post by fluxlizard on Jul 26, 2010 20:37:36 GMT
I don't have much to contribute except to say thanks for this thread.
I'm a US keeper farther north, with outdoor summer housing very very similar.
Have been putting some work and thought into outdoor winter ideas.
Where are you located? I'm in southern VA.
My question with the styrophome box- if it merely frosts where you are, I'm wondering if the boxes will heat up too much for brumation many days since they will be located above ground...
I used a cold room last winter. A cool basement floor might be easier to control with this type of caging that is off the ground...
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Post by ameivaboy on Jul 26, 2010 23:09:12 GMT
Hi Flux, Is your name Ethan? I was speaking to someone else on Fauna who lives in Va (I think) who just acquired several Lepidus from the same breeder as myself. I am in El Cerrito,Ca- right by Berkeley- some 10 miles or so from San Francisco. I hadn't considered the boxes heating up at all. There will be a wood box with the insulation on the inside. I dont think that any weak sunlight would cause it too heat up. Still a slight concern would be my local temperatures staying just warm enough for the loss of reserves while not being warm enough for the lizards to hunt as Chris has mentioned. It seems my only options are trying the styro "dam", sticking the lizards in the shed, or making an attempt at placing them in a refrigerator.... Not really sure which route to go... This requires much thought. I did find this website which lists the average Temperatures (in Farenheit) throughout the year in Berkely (a mere 4 miles from me) If that might help anyone in their suggestions for me. www.idcide.com/weather/ca/el-cerrito-contra-costa-county.htmI appreciate all the input very much. ~Kevin
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Post by fluxlizard on Jul 28, 2010 2:16:10 GMT
No, my name is not ethan.
Also, I'm not working with lacerta- wish I was.
But I have been brumating various lizard species indoors using various ideas for 15 years or so in order to breed them.
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barb1
Full Member
Posts: 217
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Post by barb1 on Jul 31, 2010 22:36:23 GMT
Hi Ameivaboy,
I too have looked at your vivs. They look great for summer use but as Chris and Mark have said, no good for hibernation.
My experience with hibernation of adult Lepida is that they like a very deep chamber and by that I mean more than 2ft or 60cm if they can get the chance to dig that deep. I think if you look somewhere under pics of enclosuers, you may see my outdoor one. It has a mound in the middle with a north facing entrance which has been excavated very deep. Remember they do grow into large lizards.
I have found that a mound in the middle is best and they will be happy to stay in their enclosure but for those enclosures that only had a shallow cave, the lizards tended to dig down and under the walls of the encloure, so much so, I had to dig them out incase I lost them.
Last winter was very cold here but they survived very well. The ones I brumated in the shed did well but did not breed this year. So that may be part of the reason, or just having a rest year.
All the best and you will find some of us contributing on Captive Bred as well,
Barb.
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Post by ameivaboy on Aug 25, 2010 4:09:06 GMT
I just found out I will be getting some lacerta agilis soon. I think with that in mind and all thing considered I may want to try putting them in the fridge. I have read sveral articles about it and watched some youtube videos on it but it all relates to tortoises/turtles. Does anyone here have experience doing this as far as lizards are concerned?
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Post by viridis on Aug 25, 2010 19:15:17 GMT
I have done it before with mixed results which I dont know if the problem was due to the lizards being under par or the fridge. I cooled the lizards down for a couple of weeks prior to the fridge at about 10c ,stopped feedind but gave them water. Then I put the lizards into tupperware boxes with damp sphagnum moss,just damp not wet.The lizards then went into the fridge at about 5c for four to six weeks.On taking them out of the fridge I gradually warmed them up and watered and fed them. Be careful that the temperatures dont go too low ,ie freezing as the fridges temperatures may fluctuate and that the lizards dont dessicate. Also check with your wife beforehand,otherwise she may get a shock when looking for her salad ;D
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